A Chat With Crystal Tai

Crystal Tai is a Chinese-Canadian journalist based in Hong Kong. She covers cultural criticism. Our Founding Director Kiran Nazish had a chat with Crystal, when the two met in Vancouver. Kiran asked Crystal about her work in Hong Kong and South Korea, particularly covering the Hong Kong protests, how they unfolded and evolved. In the conversation about Crystal’s work in Korea, the two stumbled upon the country’s misogyny problem, the #MeToo movement, K-pop, the K-beauty industries, and facing discrimination as an ethnic Chinese. Scroll down to read more.

On the Hong Kong protests

Kiran: You were in Hong Kong when the protests took place. How long were you able to cover the protests?

Crystal: I joined the South China Morning Post (SCMP) as a reporter on the Asia desk near the end of 2018. I’ve been in Hong Kong the entire time since the protests began last year.

K: There were other protests earlier, a couple of years ago. Were the recent protests linked to those in 2014? Or were the recent ones different altogether?

C: Those were the umbrella protests. Those protestors were also asking for democracy, universal suffrage, and recognition of human rights in Hong Kong. But the current protests were propelled by an extradition bill that the Hong Kong government had proposed.

Carrie Lam - the chief executive of Hong Kong - was in contact with the family of a woman murdered by her boyfriend - a Hong Konger - in Taiwan. She wanted to find a way to send the murderer back to Taiwan. Considering that Hong Kong and Taiwan have no extradition law between them, they were not able to send the man back to try him for the murder and this is how the bill came about.

Everyone is fearful of being arrested, abducted, tortured, or even executed on the street because the security troops are killing wantonly day and night, on the streets or inside residential homes. So many of us feel we are not safe simply existing as humans in the country under the siege of this terroristic regime. Women and girls are now in constant danger of  being raped and gang-raped. For decades, Myanmar security forces have been using rape as a weapon of war and political subjugation, particularly in the ancestral regions of national minorities such as Shan, Kachin, Karen, Rohingyas, and so on. Shan Woman Action Network broke ground internationally in calling the world’s attention to the Myanmar military’s use of rape as an instrument of terror with its License to Rape report released almost 20 years ago.  Thus,  the military’s practice of rape and threats of rape, with total impunity, has continued throughout the country.

K: Did that raise concerns around the bill? Is that why people started protesting?

C: The protestors were worried that this extradition bill will be used to send Hong Kongers to China because the justice system is not transparent at all. A few years ago a bookseller was taken to China and released much later.

K: So the Hong Kong protestors are speaking to the chief executive and not the Chinese government?

C: Both, I would say. The protestors see the chief executive as the figurehead or representative of Beijing. They were speaking to both but they were asking for several different demands including the cancellation of the extradition bill, which happened eventually. Although critics say it took place too late. The protests were being held for democracy and against the categorization of the protests, which the police referred to as riots; the protestors sought amnesty for all those who participated in the protests and got arrested.

K: Did they get amnesty?

C: The only thing that has “worked out” so far is the cancellation of the extradition bill, that’s about it. No other concessions have been made.

K: Considering China’s long history with Taiwan and Hong Kong, as well as the concerns of the country not being pro-democracy. Was the cancellation of the extradition bill a big change? Was it a relief or a discount?

C: There was a sense of widespread relief when it was cancelled. But the problem is that the protests over the extradition bill snowballed into a larger movement and other demands rose up. As social unrest continued and police violence against protestors increased, the cancellation of the bill was not enough. People had been scarred by other events within this prolonged period and public dissatisfaction was at an all-time high.

K: From the time that the protests began and people came out on the street, can you describe a little bit about how the police aggression grew step by step?

C: I should be careful because I was not on the frontline. I don’t think any, aside from videographers and general photographers, most journalists were advised not to be on the frontline. I can say that early on when I was there, it was quite peaceful.

As a journalist I did not participate but observed from distance. But when the protests first began, there was this sense of unity, which was amazing. People were singing together, guitars were out, everyone was just marching in solidarity. It was a very beautiful sense of civil society that Hong Kong hadn’t seen for years. Otherwise, it is a very cold, almost transactional kind of a city.

K: If you’re visiting Hong Kong and go to places run by older people, you find them very intimate; and that transactional relationship is not present among the older businesses that run more traditionally. That’s my observation. But what is it really like?

C: It depends on the environment. If you go to a restaurant, the older people there are basically working to survive. One in five Hong Kongers is living under the poverty line and that is a lot in a city that has held the record for the highest number of billionaires for years. If you go to any of these local restaurants chances are the service provider is probably short on time and trying to make it in a very highly competitive and highly inegalitarian society. So sometimes they can be short and snippy, and move on to the next. The service environment has to be like that in Hong Kong. The level of civil society has not been great until the protests for years. You just don’t talk to strangers, you don’t connect with random people on the streets.

But during the protests, at least in the beginning, people seemed to be connecting and there was unity. But as the protests continued, what worried me as a journalist was the involvement of different agendas. After a month or so, the protests became like massive events, where you would see marching bands delegations sent by the Falun Gong.

K: So everyone wanted to join the protests for their own agenda, based on their own narratives?

C: Everyone wanted their own piece of pie, walking around with donation boxes around their neck. That was when it started fragmenting a bit and then the police violence escalated with (the use of) rubber bullets, tear gas and physical assault. The protestors divided into a few groups. There were the more hard core and radicals, as they were called. Then there were other groups that came every now and then during larger marches because maybe they felt safer with their families.

K: At what point did the protests in Hong Kong turn from being non-violent to violent? And did that affect how many people joined eventually?

C: It did have a tremendous effect because according to numbers, those protests brought about two million people (on the streets) in a city of seven million and that is a huge amount. This was one of their earlier protests, where the environment felt very organic and very real.

K: How was the police handling the situation during aggression? Were people being jailed in large numbers?

C: People had been arrested on too many occasions to count.

K: Tell us about the South China Morning Post?

C: It is one of Hong Kong’s oldest English language newspapers, which has an interesting history. It began in the colonial days when the country was still a part of England. In 2016, it was acquired by Ali Baba which is currently owned by Jack Ma.

K: Do you think the coverage of the HK protests was wholesome with SCMP and was there any sense of censorship within the local press during the protests?

C: This is harder for me to speak about because I was on the Asian desk and not the Hong Kong desk. The Asian desk offers more regional insights and coverage of the area, so I was not involved in the day to day business in Hong Kong. I did more big picture stories. But SCMP got a lot of criticism at the time for the way things were covered. Because I was not on that desk, so it’s not my place to speak about it. But it was criticized a lot.

K: Could you speak generally about the coverage in local press and on social media, as an observer? Any restraints or obstacles in coverage?

C: There was not so much censorship as much as there was a tremendous amount of fake news churning out all the time. These protests were super unique in the way that they ran by the philosophy “Be like water”, which is one of Bruce Lee’s saying that became one of the motives of the protests. To flare up and dissolve when you can. They were unorganized and leaderless. There was no one behind the movement running things, so people communicated anonymously via Telegram, so it was very easy to share (virtual fake news).

K: It is very easy to share logistics as well as any kind of information can come, which could also be authentic or inauthentic?

C: Yes, it was very difficult to filter through that. I was at one of the protests where they (the protestors) broke into Legco, which is the government building in Hong Kong. These protestors had gathered around the glass façade of the entrance and were breaking it down. Since the protest was leaderless and everyone was trying to contribute in their own way, the protestors would tell the person next to them what was being asked at the frontline and pass it that way. Sometimes, by the time that message came down to the end, people would just share something completely untrue.

K: Since you covered the protests, how did you separate feeling emotional, engaged and connected to it, and then going back to write about it as an objective journalist?

C: I have always felt more like an outside observer. As a journalist, you connect with your subject and interviewees, so it is possible to sympathize and empathize. But maybe because I did not grow up in Hong Kong, it has made me very cautious. I do not want to speak for people whose experiences I have not lived and being obsessive, and paranoid, of doing that in my reporting maybe helped a bit.

K: Would you like to share any observations of journalists, as in how they were looking at the protests if they were foreign or local?

C: It is hard to generalize in that way. Local journalists have more at stake because this is their home, this is where they live, they will be here indefinitely, and it is a place that they identify with very strongly. It is a city where the impact of these protests will affect not only their future, but also their families and their loved ones, so that is a very tough environment when you’re reporting. One thing that really struck me was that a lot of local reporters had not gone into thinking that they’ll be war correspondents or reporting on conflict zones, yet here they were, suddenly reporting on violent situations.

K: Suddenly, a metro reporter becomes a conflict reporter covering protests and the skill base they need for that is different, so they improvise and try to do their job, right?

C: But also the toll that it takes is too early to tell. A mental health expert I spoke with warned about the repercussions of living through trauma and violence during this time, but we can’t really speak for them.

K: Can you speak a little about those conversations - about mental health; what we know, why, how it exists?

C: This isn’t so much about journalists but about the Hong Kong society as a whole. It is so hard to talk about it because you don’t want to perpetuate any myths or encourage it but they (mental health professionals) were worried about the rates of suicides rising afterwards (after the protests). Mental health has worsened throughout Hong Kong, a city where mental health is already highly stigmatized. It is not seen so much like a disease. If you have a mental health disorder, it is just a combination of so many different factors - the extreme wealth gap in Hong Kong, the pressures of the city’s life, people there are workaholics, the environment they live in, which is basically a shoebox, (matters) because rent is sky high, and the months of protests. All of that combined takes a major toll on the general population.

K: If you have stigma around mental health in an environment like that, then it can be difficult for people to heal, find that community to heal with?

C: Hong Kong has a lot of trauma, even before the Umbrella Movement in 2014, when there were other protests back in the day. Like in 1967, the so called Hong Kong riots, there was a lot fo violence, protestors were shot to death by the colonial police. A lot of people grew up in that environment, including my father and older generations.

K: A lot of people coming in a leaderless protest movement are there because of unacknowledged trauma. People have different causes and concerns when they come out on the streets, for instance the Falun Gong had a completely different agenda. Following the trauma building up in Hong Kong for a long time, when an opportunity like this comes in people get together and energize the movement in a way? That everyone comes with different goals and energies and methods, but when these are all combined, it adds up to the strength of a movement, and perhaps the fragmentation eventually? 

C: I mean yes, it brought new energy to the movement but it also was the beginning of the fragmentation of the movement. It went its own way. For example, the Falun Gong marched in a completely different geographical direction as the other protestors.

K: Was it intentional?

C: They held their own marches too. They brought their marching bands and dancers. But they did this as a part of the Hong Kong protests. It depended on what information they were being given, whether it was through Telegram or other social media or friends or networks. Also, which groups one identified with.

K: It was like a space where everyone came and was simultaneously protesting? Indeed along with the expected fissures?

C: During the first major protests where two million people came out, there was a sense of greater unity in the air; but that’s from my personal observation, of course. Everyone was marching to ask for the cancellation of this extradition bill in solidarity as Hong Kongers. It is true that people are entitled to their right to express their trauma, to engage and support a cause but it seemed a bit different. I don’t think the voices of Hong Kongers were watered down or filtered out of the conversation. They were always featured like the main parts of the conversations in the media, that was a good thing. Also the fissures as you called them came up as people began to disagree with the methods of protesting. The factions that believed in violence to achieve the end.

On reporting from South Korea, facing discrimination, observing social movements and witnessing cultural trends on the ground

K: Let's talk about your reporting in South Korea when you were based there. What was that like?

C: I arrived in South Korea in early 2014. I always wanted to report on a dynamic, up and coming, culturally ripe place in Asia, so Seoul seemed to be it. I decided to take the chance to leave my job in Hong Kong, which was with another magazine, go to Korea and just work out on my own as an independent journalist. It was my first time freelancing and there was so much to learn.

Korea itself was a very interesting experience, as a woman of colour. I had what you would call a contradictory privilege because of my western upbringing, my ability to speak English. But I’m also ethnically Chinese; and in South Korea, Chinese people are sometimes discriminated against. As a person I felt, I was wanted and also unwanted. As a journalist, it was interesting because I would show up at interviews and people would think that I was the translator or there to do the PR, because I was this unassuming Asian person - a woman who would just show up.

K: If you are from Hong Kong or China, what is it like being in Korea in terms of cultural/social hierarchy?

C: It depends on the context of each situation. Sometimes when I was in a restaurant, people would think that I was a Chinese tourist and speak to me dismissively. Maybe because they have had a bad experience with Chinese tourists before or had certain preconceptions about them.

K: So, Chinese tourists do not get fair treatment in Korea?

C: In luxury retail environments or luxury environments, they do get VIP treatment. In general, because there are also a lot of Chinese-Koreans who come from China, the ethnic Koreans who migrate or move to Korea and historically they have been discriminated against for a certain time. They are also viewed as Chinese, and not so much Koreans. When I arrived, which was before the Hong Kong protests in 2019, the city was not as high profile in South Korea. When I met people, more often they would think that I was from China. I felt like I had a secret super power, which was the power of invisibility and being able to blend in as a foreigner, I was a non-visible foreigner. In a lot of situations, for instance, if I was on a subway or in public, I did not speak, so people could not hear my heavily accented Korean and they would treat me as they would treat a local Korean woman. I got to experience a bit of that and it was really eye opening.

K: Can you talk about being a foreign reporter in terms of the Canadian dynamic and how did that play out in your reporting on the ground?

C: I was in Korea a few weeks ago to work on a long form story about the K-pop industry for The Observer. I went to this K-pop training school in Gangnam-gu - the main business district in Seoul. I spoke with the founder of the place. He was very nice and he shared a lot of information and insights about the industry with me. But after the interview, he looked at me and said, “How can you be a reporter for The Guardian if you don’t like you’re from the UK?”. then I asked him, “What do you mean by that?” and he said, “Well, you don’t have a British accent and you’re not white.” So I get questions like that. It’s mainly how I introduce myself to people, whether it’s as a person or a journalist. If I lead off by saying that I’m Canadian, people say ‘Canadians aren’t Asians, therefore, you can’t be a Canadian’. But as a person of color, you get that in Canada too.

But in terms of reporting, getting access to high level sources in Korea, I did not face as much problem, because I did more grassroots reporting in the country. My work has mainly been more about social movements that are happening on the ground. For example, the 2016 and 2017 protests which led to the impeachment of former president Park Geun-hye. Also, the burgeoning #MeToo movement in Korea, which is incredibly inspiring. It has been really interesting to write about and observe.

On the #MeToo movement in South Korea

K: How was the #MeToo movement received in Korea?

C: As #MeToo was unfolding in Hollywood, a lot of women around the world were observing as well. In Korea, during early 2018, a female prosecutor Seo Ji-hyun said that she has been sexually harassed at work by a senior supervisor. This was one of the most high profile sexual harassment cases that were revealed in Korea. It spoke to a lot of women, because for years, sexism in Korean workplaces had always been a given.

I know someone whose boss was female. Whenever someone arrived for a meeting, she would be the one expected to make and serve tea, even though she was the senior. Women are expected to resign from their jobs once they get married, or decide to have children because you can’t have it both ways. There is an unspoken expectation for women to do that. Women have been in a very tricky position for a number of years and things are changing though.

After Seo Ji-hyun stepped forward with her case, other women began coming out as well. A former presidential candidate was accused, and eventually found guilty, of sexual assault. Date rape is one of the issues that can be addressed. The problem with spy cameras, which has been called an epidemic by critics. There have been many incidents of like spy cameras being found in public spaces. For example, inside the toilets of women’s washrooms, subway stations, and workplaces. There were reports of women being filmed without their consent. Then the images and videos are shared on the internet or on revenge porn websites in Korea. People were making millions off this; there was a whole business model around it, which is ridiculous and infuriating.

After all of this discontent and awareness of different issues taking place at the same time, women in Korea started holding protests, there were #MeToo protests too. I went to a few of the marches, which were incredibly well-organized, as most Korean protests would be. Women sitting and coordinating with mega phones, shouting out slogans. A lot of these women would show up wearing masks, sunglasses or something to hide their faces because they did not want to be identified as one of the protestors. As it could mean losing their job or being ostracized from their social networks. Being a feminist is not, or was not, until very recently seen as something acceptable. (The women) were speaking out but at great risk to their social lives and careers, which was amazing.

The movements, especially #MeToo, have developed their unique form of feminism, if you would even call it that. It is not based on the western or universal standards. It is their own and they are really adapting it into what works for Korean women. An example of that would be the 'escape the corset' movement by women to remove the oppression by taking off their make-up. Some women also had photos or videos of themselves destroying their make-up, some had cut their hair short in protest to liberate themselves of the very narrow beauty standards in Korea.

Impact of social movements by South Korean women on the K-beauty industry

K: So, in all of these interesting and complex dynamics, I assume it plays out in an economic way as well. How did #MeToo in Korea affect the beauty care industry?

C: Considering my observation from the past year, profits have been falling for K-beauty. Amorepacific, Korea’s biggest beauty company, reported losses for the first time in a while. I don’t think that it’s mainly because of what is happening in Korea though, but it’s because of the loss of Chinese consumers, who are buying local products instead. But also the K-beauty trend has maybe peaked possibly. From what I hear, they are diversifying to the Middle East, Southeast Asia, US and Russia.

K-beauty in Korea has its own connotation. Not just K-beauty but general beauty standards are very specific. This is something you notice. You go to five different K-beauty brand shops and they all sell the exact same color of lipstick and similar eye shadow palettes. I have female friends whose moms, before they go outside, say to them ‘Are you going to go outside like that? Why don’t you put on some pink lipstick’. It is expected from women to have pink or red lips all the time. The dominant thought behind it is traditional - you have to be presentable.

Women have been traditionally expected to have pale skin. I don’t want to say that Koreans are striving to look western, that’s the wrong way of going about it, but there has been an American, imperialistic influence since the US began occupying the country during the Korean war. The first ever double eyelid surgery is performed by an American surgeon who had come to Korea for cleft palate surgery of children, but ended up performing plastic surgery.

This is why more and more women have chosen not get married and not to have families in Korea, I mean the no marriage movement also came out of the #MeToo circles, not directly but it is related. Female sexual needs are not addressed and not discussed openly as well. Sex work is widespread but that’s for men.

I feel like that is lower on the list of priorities for women right now though. It’s not something that’s being openly discussed. They don’t even know about the concept of consent, according to interviewees that I’ve spoken to. There are many other hurdles to tackle, I imagine.

On access to sources in South Korea

K: How do you find resources as a journalist in Hong Kong or Korea? What is your process of reaching your sources?

C: I don’t think I’ve really been in a position where I need (to reach) that one person. I enjoy writing more big picture pieces and when it comes to analysis on an issue, I try to get to as many different voices as possible for each one.

On vulnerability of being a woman of color, and a journalist

K: I can tell you from my experience and those that I later came across while working as a founder of CFWIJ that women journalists can be vulnerable to exploitation, sometimes extremely vulnerable - depending on the environment - and at times at the hands of colleagues - often while male journalists. How has it been for you? Working as a female foriegn corres, one foot outside, the other inside. How has industry and fellow journalists been like for you?

C: I definitely noticed that kind of dynamic in Korea. When I first got there, I tried to meet other journalists and network with other freelancers. It gets really lonely if you work as a freelance journalist, so you want to connect with others, get a sense of camaraderie even if you’re not working for the same organizations.

So I met a group of foreign freelancers, a lot of whom were great but then there was a very boys club environment. I didn’t understand at first and wondered why they did not want to hang out with me. But then I spoke to some people who told me why I was not invited. They wanted someone who could share their exploits and male adventures. If you go there, you’re a killjoy because they’re going to feel judged.

Crystal shares advice as a journalist and talks about the Ariana magazine

K: What would your top tip be for fellow journalists?

C: I want to share this tip with any new, aspiring journalist that getting sources is really tough but it’s all about the approach. I try to share as much information as I can with my sources or potential sources ahead of time, so they get a sense of what the story is about and what kind of questions I’ll ask them. Let them know that their input is valued and that they would become a valuable part of the story.

K: Finally, what can you tell us about Ariana magazine?

C: It is a social justice publication based in Hong Kong and Macau. The goal is to feature unheard voices of regular people who are making a difference in the society or who are contributing in their ways, to highlight different causes in the region and to explore the nuances of our collective humanity. Right now, it’s a print publication. It comes out quarterly, even though in the future we will be publishing it three times in a year. There is also a website component where we publish regular news and stories on NGOs, and the good work that they do around the world. We also feature videos as well as explainers on activists and their lives.